Dipu K V
President - Head Operations & Customer Service at Bajaj Allianz General Insurance
Dipu K V is the President – Head Operations & Customer Service at Bajaj Allianz General Insurance. He is a global award-winning digital transformation and innovation leader and drives digital transformation, innovation & industry leadership at Bajaj Allianz leading a team of over 1600 people in 170 locations, leveraging fintech / insurtech start-ups globally. Prior to insurance, he worked at GE Capital for 20 years, fusing digital transformation & 6 sigma to redesign business models.
- [01:37] What are the biggest customer support challenges you’ve faced?
- [04:57] What is the organisation structure for the customer support?
- [07:15] How do you track the effectiveness of customer support?
- [10:55] How have your support teams grown and evolved in the last few years?
- [18:42] How has conversational AI helped enhance the quality of customer support?
I am your host Siddharth and today I have someone really special with me.
His name is Mr. Dipu KV and he’s a very senior… operational, customer service, whatever name you want to give to that field, he’s that.
He’s done all the roles. He’s done everything in terms of customer support that anybody would want to know, and he’s been super kind enough to come on our podcast today, and I would like to extend a heartful thank you to you, Sir.
And if you can, could you please explain a bit about yourself to our audience?
Dipu K V
Firstly, thank you for… you know, for the very warm introduction and your kind words Siddharth.
It’s a pleasure interacting with you as well.
Hello everyone, my name is Dipu and as Siddharth mentioned, I drive digital transformation and industry leadership in my role as the President and head of operations and customer experience at Bajaj Allianz General Insurance Company.
Bajaj Allianz General insurance Company, it’s ranked #8 amongst the global top 100 digital insurers and I’ve been with the company for more than five years now.
Prior to joining Bajaj Allianz General Insurance, I was with GE Capital for nearly two decades.
So looking forward, you know, to an engaging conversation.
[01:37] Siddharth Sharma
Alright Sir, and, uh… you know, insurance as a… I mean, with the unfortunate onset of the pandemic, insurance has been like a big… talked about… you know, industry.
And, you know, how everything is being enabled through insurance and what should insurance do. It’s a very common question that you would have been asked.
But if you could also share your insights as to, you know, how the industry has evolved in the last past year?
And what are your biggest challenges that you have been trying to solve in the customer support space.
Dipu K V
So Siddharth, you know, when the pandemic first hit us, you know 18 months ago.
At that time, you know, sales had ground to a halt, right? Especially when you had that three week lockdown.
And you know, insurance is a derived product right? When you sell cars, you sell motor insurance.
And similarly, when you travel, you know, you buy travel insurance. So at that time, you know, I guess… everybody was focused on the pandemic.
And then… you know, business was… you know, on the back burner.
But as, you know, we emerged, you know, into the new normal, right, and the new normal, you know, has been morphing into various forms of all sizes and shape.
You know, during the last few months, you know, business came back on track.
Dipu K V
And then, you know, during wave two again, you know, I think, you know, we had to take a step backward.
But I think now… you know, I think we are looking firmly ahead.
And I think as a firm, you know, we’ve been…we’ve managed to sustain well, you know, through the entire, you know, last 18 month period.
That’s from an overall perspective. Now coming to a customer experience
I think the good thing is, while we could not predict COVID-19, but we had invested in our digital journey, you know, much in advance.
And COVID-19 just happened to be a global, you know, unplanned UAT. As one of my friends colourfully put it.
And I think we passed the test with flying colours. At that time, we embarked in a massive communication blitzkrieg and we told our customers not to worry about the shutdown of the call centre.
We told them that they could avail of all the digital assets that we had created over the years. Whether it was WhatsApp, whether it was… uh…our customer portal, our AI driven chatbot, our mobile app, so on and so forth.
And the good thing is at that time, you know, virtually overnight, you know, we were able to ramp up servicing via our digital assets to nearly 80% of our total servicing portfolio.
And at that time, you know, internally, when we were also monitoring customer grievance ratios, we saw that our customer grievance ratios had dipped by a whopping 90%.
Which I guess you know was proof of the pudding, uh… You know, as I said, the proof of pudding lies in the eating.
You know, which I guess is first proof of the fact that… you know, we had built seamless, frictionless, you know, digital assets for our customers.
And we have been able to sustain that, you know, during the last 18 months.
In fact, we have won a host of awards, not just in India and in the Asia Pacific context but even globally as well.
Dipu K V
And from regulators perspective, we are the player with the lowest grievances and independent assessment by a market research agency shows that we enjoy the highest NPS in the market.
Wow! And uh… I mean, sir if I may… you know, when you talk about the NPS, and you talk about CSAT, right, You know, you talk about how you have the highest rated CIBIL, uh… you know, share… uh…
I mean, percentage in the market and why you are the eight largest…I mean, why are the large… one of the largest players, right?
This comes down to the fact that your customer support is working like a well oiled machine.
It’s working, it’s working day in and day out like the way it is supposed to be.
[04:57] Siddharth Sharma
So it is, you know, if you are very kind enough to talk about how is the customer support in your organisation like and, you know, what is the team structure and how is it built? What is the entire organisation structure for the customer support?
Dipu K V
Yeah. So the first point, you know, Siddharth, your question is… you know, while we may be digitally savvy and while we may have been recognised, I think at the root of all of this, you know, is our philosophy.
Our… in fact our logo is caringly yours, and we put in…we put in.
You know, all efforts to ensure that this culture permeates every single part of the organisation.
Right. So that we are able to demonstrate care to our, you know, customers at every step. Now, in terms of our structure, essentially… You know, while I manage the overall landscape in terms of, you know, operations and customer service for the organisation.
In my team, you know, I have, you know, a customer service vertical where, you know, I have a person who heads that.
And then, you know, under him, uh, you know, we have, for example, one person who heads the contact centre. Then we have one person who handles, you know, the non-contact centre.
You know, grievances.
Uh, we have one person, you know, who basically drives what we call… of course, NPS. And the other is, you know, our segmented servicing approach. Whereby we look at some unique initiative, you know, for some, you know, customer categories.
And then we have one person, you know, who looks at the overall qualitative aspect of the entire landscape. And then below them, you know, we have the teams.
The call centre teams, you know. The various teams, you know, which manage customer facing assets. And we also have teams, you know, which manage our middleware, you know, and our core platform.
Because what customers see, you know, are the assets which they interact with.
But then, you know, at the end of the day, you know, it’s like a swan, right?
The swan looks very graceful above the water. But below the water, you know, it’s paddling away furiously, right.
So we have teams, you know, which manage, you know, the… the entire, you know, landscape. You know, behind… behind the scenes.
So that’s how, you know, we are broadly structured and across the entire enterprise. You know, we drive this attitude of caringly yours.
Wow! I think, I mean that word caringly yours is so ingrained in my head, right,
I mean, whenever something says the word care right, I automatically start thinking of Bajaj Allianz.
Dipu K V
[07:15] Siddharth Sharma
It is, I mean, you talked about these metrics, right? You talked about the NPS, CSAT.
So, now let’s get a little deep into this metrics.
How do you measure effectiveness when it comes to customer support, and what metrics do you track internally?
Dipu K V
I think for us, like I mentioned earlier, you know the proof of the pudding lies in the eating.
Ultimately, it’s about, you know, what our customers tell us.
Now as a larger established player, right, as I said, you know we are ranked #8 amongst the global top 100 digital insurers and we’ve been in business for 20 years, right?
And we have a huge customer base. We have a huge partner base. So just by virtue of being…you know, a large player in the business We also come across, you know, customer feedback on a daily basis wherein customers reach out to.
Now we do not want to limit ourselves only to reactive feedback. We also want to take proactive feedback. So therefore we also get to use tools such as NPS and then… and NPS happens in two parts. One is what we call transaction NPS.
Which is we take customer feedback after every transaction that they have with us. And then we have this relationship NPS, you know, which is done through an independent third party market research firm.
And apart from that, we also conduct focus group discussions.
You know, to get customer feedback on various aspects from time to time. So the way we measure ourselves is, you know, based on all this feedback.
And we have our own internal benchmarks and we obviously, you know, have fairly high benchmarks for us internally. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be enjoying, you know, the highest NPS in the marketplace or the lowest grievances.
You know, as per the regulator. And we have been doing this consistently for years now. So we have our, you know, benchmarks in terms of where we want to be, you know, across various customer facing, you know, assets.
So we track ourselves on those benchmarks. The other aspect which we pride on Siddharth is uh…We also want to ensure that, you know, we are industry first.
You know, in terms of coming up with unique initiatives for customers. So for example, if you look at the claim process, that is the moment of truth in insurance. So whether it was travel, you know, where in we launched a blockchain based, you know, travel claim settlement solution nearly four years ago.
Or whether it is motor, which is the largest line of business. Whereby we crunched the entire claim settlement process from days to minutes. I think we also measure ourselves in terms of, you know, how we are… you know, continuously raising the bar. You know, by coming out with, you know, unique customer centric initiatives from time to time.
And what we also do is for us success lies in what our customers tell us. It’s not about what we think about our initiatives. It’s what customers tell us. So for every initiative, you know, we have, you know, as I said, internal SLA’s and benchmarks or what customers tell us.
And we track ours…you know, we track ourselves on those metrics.
[09:38] Siddharth Sharma
Got it. And when it comes to customer support and experience, what platforms do you currently operate in?
Dipu K V
So we use, you know, a wide variety of, you know, platform. So for example, you know, we have a core platform, you know, which we migrated to and we are in the process of migrating some other lines of business.
And then, you know, we have, you know, a middleware which is our, you know, customer relationship management software. Which is our CRM platform which connects our core to our customer facing assets.
And then, when it comes to a customer facing assets, you know, we have contact centres where we work with partners and they use, you know, their own platforms.
And then of course, you know, we have WhatsApp where customers can reach out to us. We have an AI-driven bot, you know which we… whereby, you know, we have a partnership you know, with a… with an entity in India.
And then, you know, we also have, you know, our own website, customer portal, so on and so forth. So, we use you know, variety of platforms and for us it’s a mix of make and buy.
We have our own in-house teams, you know, which develop a lot of these platforms. And we also have, you know, platforms where we have, you know, entered into partnerships for point solutions, you know, with various players in the marketplace.
[10:55] Siddharth Sharma
Got it. And, uh, you know, when we talk about support and we talk about the metrics right, and you are someone who has seen the industry.
Not only, I mean, at Bajaj Allianz, but the entire industry grow as well, right?
How have your support teams grown and evolved in the last few years?
Dipu K V
So there are, you know, multiple ways of looking at it. Uh, one is, of course, you know as I said, you know, when we look at the, you know, customer feedback which comes our way, we ensure that, you know, we staff our teams adequately.
You know, for those servicing areas. Now there are two ways to look at it.
One is BAU, which is business as usual. Like I mentioned, we’re a large player and when it comes to servicing, you know, there is no compromise.
So we need to ensure that, you know, we have the right quantity and the right quality of people.
And that we do through a stringent hiring process. Through a strong training process. And by ensuring that, you know, they are, you know, continuously, you know, focused on this aspect.
So that’s clearly, you know, one area. How teams have grown internally, there we also look at, you know, how over the years, you know, teams have grown.
Let’s say somebody who joined as a front end associate, you know, how has he grown into a leadership role. We also look at, you know, people, you know, who have, you know, move on to bigger roles.
You know, within the organisation. So that’s, you know, at an individual level in level. You know, how do we look at that. The 3rd is, you know, we also look at our own employee feedback.
You know, in terms of, you know, what is the value addition that they have had from the organisation.
So for example, when the pandemic happened. You know, we were able to leverage the save on commuting time, right?
Especially in cities like Delhi and Mumbai. When people travel, you know, anything from one to two hours one way. We were able to, you know, leverage that time by coming out with, you know, digital learning and development programs, right?
And we focused not only on on-the-job training, but we also focused on individual, you know, personal leadership development programs.
So we have got, you know, strong feedback on a, you know, on a very… on a very positive note, you know, from, you know, our team members.
And apart from that, I think it’s our connect. So what happened in the pandemic happened.
You know, people were working from home because we had a socially and physically distanced workforce.
But we had to keep them, you know, emotionally and digitally connected.
Because you are talking about a call centre person who is at the receiving end day in and day out.
How do we keep them motivated?
Dipu K V
How do they demonstrate caringly yours? You know, through the, you know, through the entire month and through the entire period.
So we came out with a home grown, you know, employee engagement program called “Celebrating You”. And we converted, you know, adversity into opportunity because we said now that they’re at… from…they are working at home.
We can also involve families. So for example, we came out with the weekend Master chef. So, you know, anybody’s family member could contribute. And then, you know, we had, you know, tons of, you know, recipes and, you know, photographs flowing in on a WhatsApp group.
And then we did a digital antakshari program. Then we did, you know, digital painting competition. On Mother’s Day, you know we had a concert by mothers for mothers comprising mothers.
So when we finally took employee engagement scores during the pandemic, they turned out to be higher than our scores, you know, pre pandemic.
Dipu K V
So I think a combination of, you know, connect and investment in training and all the other process that I mentioned. You know, I think, you know, these are, you know, a testament to the way, you know, we have gone about building our team.
I think one of the things when people talk about digital transformation, right, they miss this part about agent, right? Because everyone is like OK. How can I get things done more digitally?
How can I get the processes more. But at the same time, I mean, customer support is also ensuring that your agents are enough motivated and they are… and… they carry your philosophy forward to the end customer, right?
Dipu K V
[14:01] Siddharth Sharma
And this is fantastic to hear.
I mean, a brand putting in so much effort to make sure that their customer support agents are able to support their customers, right?
I mean, it’s brilliant. And, you know, a lot of times right, what used to work 10 years before doesn’t work now, right?
Now, in terms of customers, right, and I mean Bajaj Allianz is dedicated towards building a delightful customer support experience, right? Your thoughts on what used to work and what works today?
Dipu K V
So I think, you know, when you look at, you know, corporate history. It’s going to get reset as, you know, pre-COVID and Post-COVID.
So I think, you know, pre COVID, you know, you had a lot of focus on touch and feel. And I think, you know, the moment, you know, everybody was forced to work in a digital manner.
Not just work in a digital manner, but even live in a digital manner. I think, you know, the entire focus shifted from physical highways to digital highways.
So clearly, you know, we have seen that in the last 18 months. And I think everybody is focused on that.
But I think now, you know, as we…as… as we have spent 18 months and being digital is today no longer an advantage but a necessity.
So now what are the, you know, focus areas going forward? One, I think clearly is multilingual. Because we need to understand that in the Indian context, you know, a lot of digital assets are offered in English. Whereas it becomes truly important to ensure that, you know, you are able to talk to the customer, you know, in the language that he knows.
So therefore I think, you know, multilingual focus is really required to amplify your reach.
The second aspect is, you know, while we have been able to digitise the physical.
I think now the accent has shifted to humanising the digital. How do you ensure that you have the best of both man and machine?
Dipu K V
Because when customers call you, they call you during their tough times. They need empathy and they need a healing touch. So how do you give the consistency and efficiency of bots, yet have this focus on empathy and healing touch?
I think you know these are two clear focus areas. The third is, since COVID-19 has made all of us very vary of touch, I think from a UI/UX perspective, how can we, you know, leverage, you know, touchless, you know, experiences.
So I think touchless, multilingual and humanising the digital. I think these are three clear focus areas now.
Since, you know, the last 18 months are, now, you know, behind us.
[16:14] Siddharth Sharma
All right. And now, let me get into digital transformation. I mean, you have driven a lot of projects and… is there a way to reimagine the way customer support has evolved over the years?
And, you know, while we have talked about this. But do you truly believe the pandemic was a turning point when it came to, you know, organisation innovating when it comes to engaging with their customers?
Dipu K V
So there are two aspects to your question. One of course by the pandemic was a turning point.
Because it ensured that, you know, universally, you know, everybody adapted to a new way of doing things. Now coming to reimagining customer experience. You see that’s an Evergreen process.
I mean, it’s always there, right?
Because the pandemic is not the last Black Swan event that we have seen, right?
I mean, you could see some more unpredictable events like these, you know, during your lifetime.
So when it comes to customer experience and how do we reimagine that?
We typically follow five step process which I think, you know, will, you know, help everyone in this quest for digital transformation?
I think step number one is to basically listen to your customers. This is normally missed because people normally want to just latch onto the latest buzzword in town and then go about launching solutions.
Step number two, you know, having done step number one, is to then classify the customer feedback that you have received into stated needs and unstated needs.
All of us are good at… you know, typically meeting stated needs. But it’s very important to understand, you know, what are the unstated needs of customers.
Step number three is then to take… take stock of, you know, your current landscape. And typically you’ll find that all your processes and systems have been set up not keeping the customer in the centre of things.
You know, for example, very few organisations, even universally, have a one stop shop, right? If you go to a bank, they would say, you know, for fixed deposits go here for life… you know
For… let’s say, you know, savings accounts, you know, go to the other department, right?
Similarly, if you go to an insurance company, you would go to one department for motor.
You would go to another department for health. Very few organisations, you know, will have a one stop shop.
So which is where, you know, if we can bring in truly… true customer focus.
Then I come to step number four, which is to reengineer and reimagine your landscape. And then if you can do that and move from, let’s say, a department focus to a customer focus, then you have got the landscape ready.
And then you come to step number five. Which is typically the step number one for most firms. Which is that you then launch your digital solution.
And every time we don’t have to necessarily, you know, latch on to… you know, blockchain or AI or ML.
Sometimes, you know, the best solution is the simplest solution, right? Ultimately you have to solve for a need, right?
The solution has to meet a need. It’s not that you launch the solution and then you go about figuring out a need for that solution, right?
So I think if you follow this five step process, you see everything comes in. Digital transformation comes in, reimagining, you know, the entire customer landscape comes in, and then you find that, you know, you are successful far more often than not.
[18:42] Siddharth Sharma
Alright. Uh, also, you know, uh…you have seen automation, conversational AI also growing in the industry right. And, you know, I wanted to get your thoughts, right. How have AI, you know, and conversational AI in particular with automation has helped enhance the quality of customer support in your opinion?
Dipu K V
In a phenomenal way, Siddharth. I’ll give you a couple of examples.
For example, if you look at our motor claims process, which I told you about, earlier, if you crashed your car, you would have to call up the insurance company.
They would have to send an inspector, you know, to the site. And then he will inspect the car, submit his report and the entire process kicks in.
Now all you have to do, you know, for our customers up to a certain amounts, it’s just two steps. You click photographs and you upload them using the mobile app.
Our AI engine will go through the images and in a matter of minutes get back to you with the claim assist amount.
And once you give your consent, the money is transferred. So what used to take days now takes 20 minutes.
So clearly AI has helped us. You know, revolutionalise, you know, customer impact and take it on a, you know, an altogether different level.
The other is if you look at our bot, you know, like everybody has… everybody uses bots. But how did we differentiate ourselves?
So our bot is, you know, AI driven and what our bot does, you know in case we are not able to answer a custom query, it gets seamlessly transferred to a human being.
So for the customer there is no break in service.
Dipu K V
You know he gets to experience, you know, a seamless transition from the bot to a human being. We didn’t want the customer to, you know, hang up and then, you know, hover over the chat.
And then, you know, again, call up the call centre or go to the website or reach out to us via email.
We said, you know, let’s… let the human being carry it through end to end.
And then by using AI and NLP, you know we teach the bot, you know, the areas which it could not address, you know, previously.
So the bot is learning all the time and its own query of first time query… you know, first time resolution is… is increasing all the time. And that’s how, you know, we have been able to leverage AI. You know, to give the best of man and machine you know to our customers. So I think AI, you know, has clearly helped us, you know, to revolutionise the entire, you know, landscape.
And the uses of AI in insurance, you know, are far too many, you know. It’s also an altogether different conversation.
There are plenty of use cases.
Yes and while you talked about the motor insurance being 20 days, right? I’ve been on that end. I mean, I’ve been on that life cycle where I’ve crashed my father’s car and I’ve had to wait for it.
Actually, the way you described it was actually very clear, right? It came and you know it does it. And then it takes 20-25 days and then you have to talk.
And now that it is doing it in minutes it is superb, right?
Dipu K V
[21:10] Siddharth Sharma
And what is that one tech in customer support that you would want today?
Like if you were to close your eyes and think that OK, hey, I need this technology today what would be that one technology?
Dipu K V
I think it’s a bit difficult to, you know put your finger on any one technology.
Because you see the whole arena of customer experiences, you know so complex that, you know you can’t pick any one technology and expect it, you know, to be, you know, universally, you know, applicable.
But if you look at, you know, what we have done and what we, you know, are… are leveraging currently.
You know, you’ll get an idea in terms of, you know, what, you know, what the landscape looks like. You know, to give, instant, you know, claim settlement solution to customers in the area of international travel.
Similarly, we had leveraged, you know, AI and machine vision you know, for motor claims. AI of course, you know, we have used.
You know, even in our, you know, chats. And then we also had leveraged IoT.
You know, to come out, you know, with specific products for customers. So these are the technologies, you know, we have used in the past.
You know, in terms of, you know, coming out with specific products. And you know, services for customers.
Now right now if you see, going forward, what is happening is you need to get your hands around data because the customer footprint is increasingly digital.
Now we, of course, you know, moved to the cloud and then we’ve been able to move from SILO data marts to a data lake. But if you look at data in India, it’s complex in many ways. One is, it comes in several Languages. The other is, you know, the forms of data are different.
You can have handwritten forms of data. You can have printed forms. You can have hard copies. You can have soft copies. You can have text. You can have voice. You know, you can have video. So how do you ingest all of that?
You know, and then make sense, you know.
And then, you know, you are able to get back to the customer, you know, immediately, right? So if you look at it that way.
Yeah, I think the one thing which every… anybody would want is, you know, a tool, you know, which can immediately ingest all these various forms of data and come out with an immediate output.
And let me give you one example of what we have already done there. Let’s say today, you know, one of our customers clicks on Google Maps and he wants to go to a branch.
So we have a bot which pops up. Then he asks… and the bot asked the customer saying that, you know, is there a way I can help service you digitally?
And if the customer is able to get service digitally, then the need to go to the branch is obviated, you know.
So that way, if we can leverage data, you know, in its myriad forms, you know.
Then we’re able to give instantaneous solutions. I think we can really revolutionise and take customer service to the next level.
[23:46] Siddharth Sharma
Definitely… definitely sir. And, my last question, right. While I would want you to answer so many questions about customer supporting customer experience.
My last question is how do you think bots and automation will, you know, evolve in the next coming 2-3 years?
Dipu K V
No, I think it’s an interesting question. I think, as I mentioned to you, I think humanising the digital, I think, is clearly one focus area.
Already, I think there is a lot of focus in terms of getting bots to mimic human beings because then you get the best of both, right?
You get, you know, bots to give you that consistency. Because they don’t have mood swings. They can work 24 by 7 right.
At the same time, you know, how can they… they give customers, you know, a human like experience. So I think, you know, clearly, you know, that’s one area where we see, you know, where we see it evolving.
The other is, I think, you know, there’s already, you know, movement happening in terms of uh… the linguistic aspect that I spoke about, right?
In terms of how do we get, you know, bots and automation going in from a multilingual perspective.
You know, in the Indian context and I think that will really be, you know, the next frontier. You know, from an Indian perspective.
So I think, you know, these are two areas, you know, where I see focus going. You know, in the next, you know, two to three years.
The third aspect is. As we do automation and bots. You know, it’s not definite…. It’s not necessarily always going to be a one way journey.
Somewhere along the way, you could also find, uh, you know, born-again… born-again focus on human skills. So I’ll give you an example. We have launched a unique initiative called virtual Relationship manager at hospital in health insurance.
So when customers get hospitalised, you know, they have two worries. One is of course moving from illness to wellness. And the other is a, you know, they are sometimes wary of navigating the complex administrative machinery in hospitals.
So we have an RM and what the RM does is, it’s a real RM, but present virtually. He is not present in the hospital physically.
He gives these customers loads of empathy and he tells them, saying, you don’t have to worry about the processing. I’ll take care of it and you just focus on, you know, recovery.
And obviously customers have a… you know, are hugely relieved. And then using his device he gives them digital processing.
And we got an NPS done on this, you know, because we offered this in a, you know, as a pilot, you know, to some select hospitals. And we got a score of 90, nine-zero without a single detractor.
Dipu K V
So that just tells you that if, you know, if you use, you know, the right combination of man and machine, you can do wonders. So I think the multilingual aspe… aspect that I spoke about, humanising the digital, you know, and then this combination of man and machine.
I think, you know, these three areas are what you will see in the area of automation and bots over the next few years.
I think the last line was super powerful about how the man and machine.
And… you know, humanising the digital experience and multilingual, they will play role. Thank you so much Dipu sir for coming on and talking to me.
It’s a huge learning experience for the team at Verloop and, you know, and… and for me as well.
Thank you so much.
Dipu K V
Thank you so much Siddharth and you know, it was a learning experience for, you know, for me as well, you know.
Good questions, you know. You really made me think. Yeah. So thank you. I enjoyed the conversation.